there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. Thank you Bill ! When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. The double stack G19 is thicker. Now, I read the officers story. Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. 2. It goes in a like a nail.. I have been shooting for 50 years now. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Makes no difference to me. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Among other things, this Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. Well, depends on whom you ask. Copyright 2023 This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. It makes a bigger hole. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. They found that their guns wouldnt stop the insurgents charging at them, until seconds or minutes after the bullets entered their adversaries bodies. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. Bullet was military Ball. So they downvote actual biological functions here. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Its a freaking tarantula. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. Our team, our mission, our partners, and more. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. So that is where the saying and belief came from. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. Okay all handgun are garbage. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Project: Aftermath Wiki. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Gimme a break! After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. I am old school. You might be able to talk to the first guy. They are a secondary source at best. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. and Privacy Policy. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. Because size is king? When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. Riley, love your artical. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. If a 9mm bullet barely misses the heart or aorta of an adversary, but the heart or aorta of that same person is creased by the slightly larger .40 or .45 caliber round, it can be said with conviction that bullet diameter, expanding or not, really does matter. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Unless they needed concealablity. Give me a break!! at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. There was no blood on the floor below him. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. for every day carry. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Theres been many people shot and continue. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. And the department is no small one. How about a discussion of American made vs foreign made weapons for our military? When they enter the body, they spread out into a star-shaped pattern that enhances the damage caused by the wound channel. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). I use +P ammo. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. Died instantly. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Shot placement?! All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. Thats why were here right? I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. Make your best shot number one. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. The money has to come from somewhere. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Ships To Store. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Government can spend less of my tax dollars (maybe. Sound familiar?? Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Knock down power. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Owned a model 29 .357 While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. But thats a subject for another article. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. He died in our E.R. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. A pistol just sucks in that situation. SEMPER FI. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. I carried an issue 45. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). Love it. This can cause more than embarrassment. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! I spend a great deal of time on the range. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Maybe .22 LR? For those not in the military, go for what you want. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. But Im my opinion, they are tools! Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. True. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. And Im not always concerned with concealing. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. Shot placement is not a variable, it is a constant. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller.
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45 acp damage human body
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