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So thank you Jeff S. I have read John Pipers paper on why he believes what he does and have seen many debates both for and against Calvinism. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. @ Julie Anne: God is NOT in control. They will tend to use hyperbole to make their point. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I gotta second numos motion. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. We can also agree that God is the author of evil doctrine is evil. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. I disagree. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. It is not love to push Calvin. . Anyway, just a plug for the traditional anabaptists if someone is looking for an evangelical experience that is not Calvinist or pastor-ruled (you have to check each Mennonite church out, some can be very old-school with head coverings, but the modern ones arent at all). Calvinism is merely the attempt by one man to interpret the Bible; there are scores of others, men and women, who have attempted the same. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. All are welcome to participate. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). Those who fell outside the box and had to be pushed away They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. The Reformed doctrine of salvation is commonly represented by the acrostic TULIP (also known as the five points of Calvinism ): T - total depravity. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . And this is the crux of the problem. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. I hadnt thought of it that way. These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others. John Hagee. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. by allowing them). If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. (LogOut/ We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. One section was exploring happiness. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. We are not monolithic. Sois that what we are saying? But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. But these things do not happen independently of God. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. I try to keep debates in check on the blog and steer away from them as my blog is supposed to be a safe place. That is biblical. You can find this sort of material by googling for it. So very reasonable. ). I, for one, *do* understand. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? Thank you, Deb. Reformed Theology, Rooted in the Bible. That is why I do not now, nor will I ever, follow a man. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. The theology is weak. C.K. And even if God has blessed them, more often that not, Gods blessing is a resource, not a reward. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! God is NOT in control. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Ive tried to suss out how God can create everything that exists and still give us free will, and I dont get that either; but because God is bigger and more powerful than me, I believe that he did. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. It needs to be dealt with directly and honestly, a complicated complex mature topic. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. The whole idea of total depravity is simply to say that you must be elect in spite of yourself, regardless of how good or bad you are because good and bad dont really mean anything to God as far as WHY He saves some and not others. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Westboro Baptist uses the Bible for a proof text for hatred. Then I discovered I was not, and it was like a moment of deliverance from a mighty weight that had been pressing me down. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. But are *we* the measure of truth? What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. CALVIN! Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Hes already won me to his side. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. They certainly didnt bring freedom in Christ. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. I do not know. @ Nick Bulbeck: Hmm not sure I agree, but if were OK on the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, alls well! I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. I dont know. I know. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. How dare he write such a long work! I grew out of it, something I hope the YRR does. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. There are a lot of avenues going on here. Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! And I get better at flying (so to speak). Calvinism , the theology advanced by John Calvin, a Protestant reformer in the 16th century, and its development by his followers.The term also refers to doctrines and practices derived from the works of Calvin and his followers that are characteristic of the Reformed churches.The Calvinist form of Protestantism is widely thought to have had a The accurate view of TD can be found in the chart that I linked to in my reply to dee. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. Being able to truly believe that God predestined us for salvation, but never for damnation. The bullying was behind the scenes. whats wrong with mess anyway? Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. One more thing. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. I dont think that is what TWW is for, and if it were then I wouldnt be here. I know the WCF does not say it. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Everything you are saying here is consistent with a Reformed view of human responsibility.

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